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This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.
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Moby Clarke
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Post subject: Continuing Education Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:32 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:09 pm Posts: 965 Location: North Minneapolis
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I stopped by the North Regional library today with my openly carried firearm on my hip. The unarmed security guy, a barely 21 year old guy, asks if I am LEO. Told I am not, he informs me I must not carry in the library. We have the usual chat with me explaining the law and, in fact, other libraries have the disclaimer on their signs about how the sign does not apply to permit holders.
He then asks if I will at least cover it up. Sure.
While I'm standing there waiting for something else, he asks about my gun and then says he just took the class for his "conceal and carry" permit. I ask him, since he has been wrong on all counts so far, from whom did he take his class. Now, before you all get ahead of me, no, it was not Coconut Charlie, although that was the answer I was expecting.
It was..............................................................................................................(big drum roll) Bill's.
We talked more and I explained government entities and their ability to post, that it is a permit to carry, concealed is not in the law, and several other facts. He seemed eager to learn. In fact, the library lady helping me also seemed impressed with my knowledge and understanding of the law. I did encourage him to go back to Bill's and either ask to take another instructor's class for free or get a refund. I also encouraged him to mention to his boss the need to get a refresher so correct info can be given to all the security guys.
We shall see.
_________________ It is about Liberty!
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Chris
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:48 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Moby Clarke wrote: I stopped by the North Regional library today with my openly carried firearm on my hip. The unarmed security guy, a barely 21 year old guy, asks if I am LEO. Told I am not, he informs me I must not carry in the library. We have the usual chat with me explaining the law and, in fact, other libraries have the disclaimer on their signs about how the sign does not apply to permit holders.
He then asks if I will at least cover it up. Sure.
While I'm standing there waiting for something else, he asks about my gun and then says he just took the class for his "conceal and carry" permit. I ask him, since he has been wrong on all counts so far, from whom did he take his class. Now, before you all get ahead of me, no, it was not Coconut Charlie, although that was the answer I was expecting.
It was..............................................................................................................(big drum roll) Bill's.
We talked more and I explained government entities and their ability to post, that it is a permit to carry, concealed is not in the law, and several other facts. He seemed eager to learn. In fact, the library lady helping me also seemed impressed with my knowledge and understanding of the law. I did encourage him to go back to Bill's and either ask to take another instructor's class for free or get a refund. I also encouraged him to mention to his boss the need to get a refresher so correct info can be given to all the security guys.
We shall see. Damn, I need to hang out at the library more often...a great chance for me to hand out my business cards! -Mark
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bstrawse
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:01 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:51 pm Posts: 172
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Interesting.
I took my class at Bill's North from Nate Warren -- these topics were covered in some detail.
I'd love to know who he took his class from. b
_________________ NRA Life Member | NRA & MADFI Instructor | NRA Chief Range Safety Officer | Blog | Twitter | Facebook My views are my own - they may or may not reflect those of my employer.
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:03 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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bstrawse wrote: Interesting.
I took my class at Bill's North from Nate Warren -- these topics were covered in some detail.
I'd love to know who he took his class from. b I think you've hit the issue on the head: inconsistent instruction there. -Mark
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portsari
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:36 am |
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Member |
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:28 am Posts: 24
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There are also instructors who rent a space at bills.
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:20 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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Moby Clarke wrote: While I'm standing there waiting for something else, he asks about my gun and then says he just took the class for his "conceal and carry" permit. I ask him, since he has been wrong on all counts so far, from whom did he take his class. Now, before you all get ahead of me, no, it was not Coconut Charlie, although that was the answer I was expecting.
It was..............................................................................................................(big drum roll) Bill's. Unsurprising. The quality of instruction is very, very spotty there. I think there are a couple of decent instructors at Bill's, but there's some inherent problems in their setup, and attitude.
_________________ Just a guy.
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340PD
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:25 pm |
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:02 pm Posts: 188 Location: Saint Paul
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portsari wrote: There are also instructors who rent a space at bills. I was wondering about that. I thought at Bill's it would just be 'their' people. I took my class at Bill's North location before it was Bill's, it was Armored Fire back then. I wondered if since the change over if independent instructors still taught out of there or if it was only Bill's employees.
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Sorcerer
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:49 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:25 pm Posts: 6
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I shoot a Bill's alot, both north and south. I have seen alot of independent instructors working at both place's. The independents are easy to spot.
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JimC
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:17 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:56 pm Posts: 1109
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How does the state regulate instruction programs? If they do.
If enough complaints were filed against Bill's, could the state make them get their act together with their carry classes?
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:10 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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JimC wrote: How does the state regulate instruction programs? If they do. In practice, their regulation varies between slim and none. This is something that, apparently, folks like Gary Shade and Joe Penaz are happy about.
_________________ Just a guy.
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Saunassa
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:23 am |
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Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:53 pm Posts: 74 Location: Up Nort'
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it is amazing how many folks think it is a conceal and carry law versus just a permit to carry. it bugs me to no end when those who have received a permit refer to it as a conceal and carry. I often wonder if that is what it was referred to in the class they took. I went to my first class in pierz back in 2003 by a former LEO and took my refresher last fall from two guys near Brainerd (you probably know them) and they all made sure we knew it was a permit to carry.
_________________ "A cubicle is nothing more than a padded cell without a door"
Last edited by Saunassa on Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:26 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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Yup.
_________________ Just a guy.
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tman065
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:43 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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I'm thinking that it doesn't matter to most people how the permit is labeled. They just care that they can carry.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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AGoodDay
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:02 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:06 pm Posts: 666 Location: St Cloud
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I've definitely had to spend a little time re-instructing (not in a class, just when they ask a question or think I'm doing something illegal) friends who were taught at Bill's... much like I had to be re-instructed actually, having taken my first class from Bill's. Most of my re-instruction was through personal research, initially, and lots of "oh, that's not what the law says" moments. I was impressed with their instruction at the time. In hindsight, not so much.
_________________ Try not. Do or do not, but do not try. - Yoda
Never give up. Never, never, never. - Churchill
Stand on the shoulders of your giant.
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Continuing Education Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:48 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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tman065 wrote: I'm thinking that it doesn't matter to most people how the permit is labeled. They just care that they can carry. I think so. The problem is that the incorrect nomenclature encourages some folks -- particularly some badged folks (present company obviously not included) -- to think that we have "conceal and carry" permits in Minnesota, and that somebody not concealing is committing some sort of crime. I'm not a big fan of the decision that Darth Lillehaug got out of the appeals court back in 2005, but this section is spot on (note: the decision is now moo): Quote: To ensure that all readers of this opinion, legal and lay persons, have a common language, we have a commentary. The PPA has been widely known, debated, and discussed, under a nickname—the “conceal and carry” bill. Somehow, the nickname “conceal and carry” got on the bill and stuck like a porcupine’s quills in the nose of an overaggressive hunting dog. To set the record straight, both sides agree there is not now, nor has there ever been, any “conceal” in the laws surrounding the regulation and application for a permit to carry a handgun on one’s person. “Conceal” has never been a part of the PPA. The PPA allows you, if you have the permit, to carry the handgun openly or to have it beneath some article of clothing where it does not show. If you do not get the permit, it does not matter whether you wish to carry the handgun outside or inside your clothing. You cannot do it without being criminally liable. 2003 Minn. Laws ch. 28, art. 2, § 4. The same thing is true of the former handgun permit law, which the PPA supplanted. Under the prior law, in effect since the start of Minnesota’s handgun permitting laws (1975 Minn. Laws ch. 378 § 4, codified at Minn. Stat. § 624.714 (1976)), if you had a permit to carry a handgun, it did not matter whether you displayed it openly or concealed it. If you did not have a permit under the prior law to carry a handgun, it would also not matter whether you displayed it openly or concealed it. You could not. Thus, a more accurate short-term handle for the PPA at issue would be the “handgun carry” bill, nothing more. __________________ * Moo: as important as a cow's opinion.
_________________ Just a guy.
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This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.
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