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Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:02 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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Oops, I forgot: yeah, what Lenny said.
_________________ Just a guy.
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Prhyme
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:53 pm |
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:31 pm Posts: 30 Location: Rockford, MN
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Could someone point me in the direction of a sample Courthouse notification letter? I'll be heading into Buffalo in the next few weeks and would like to have my ducks in a row. Based on my understanding, after you send the notification letter, will they respond with their accepted process (legal or otherwise) or do I just show up with a couple extra copies and see what happens ?
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:00 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Lenny7
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:05 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:09 am Posts: 1060 Location: Savage, MN
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Prhyme
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:36 pm |
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:31 pm Posts: 30 Location: Rockford, MN
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A modification of Joel's letter adjusted for Courthouses instead of Capitol Grounds. IANAL, but feel free to modify and use if you find it useful:
Gary L. Miller, Sheriff Wright County Law Enforcement Center 3800 Braddock Ave NE Buffalo, MN 55313-1197
Via Certified Mail Dear Sheriff Miller:
Minn. Stat. 609.66, Subdivision 1g specifies that a person who " possesses a dangerous weapon, ammunition, or explosives within any courthouse complex" is guilty of a felony, except for several classes of persons, including "persons who carry pistols according to the terms of a permit issued under section 624.714 and who so notify the sheriff or the commissioner of public safety, as appropriate." (See Minn. Stat 609.66, Subd 1g, (b)(2))
As a resident of Wright County, I occasionally visit Wright County Government Center. As the holder of a Minnesota State Permit to Carry a Handgun, it is likely that when I do so, I will have my pistol in my possession.
Please consider this letter as the required notification, securing for me the exemption specified in Minn. Stat 609.66, Subd 1g, (b)(2). A copy of the front my current permit is included, as is a copy of the front of my Minnesota driver's license.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Very truly yours,
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tman065
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:55 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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mrokern wrote: The airport snafu, while entirely innocent on your part...didn't you technically commit a crime? And I'm betting one that could have started with an "F" in its classification had you gotten a different set of TSA agents...
Obviously you didn't mean to do it...
-Mark I might have committed a crime, or maybe not. I DID declare to the ticket agent that I had it. (And that would most likely be the defense that I would've had to present in court). I am very glad that I am not having to test that defense. For the record, I never had direct contact w/TSA. Airport police and NWA baggage people only.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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tman065
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:58 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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joelr wrote: I'm not big on excuses, and as somebody who argues -- frequently, and publicly -- that folks with badges are too often given a free ride when they break the law, I'm certainly leaving myself open to the argument (which, Tman, you haven't made explicitly -- and it would be okay if you did) that I'm engaging in some special pleading when I argue (and I do) this particular person should be given a slap on the wrist ("Don't do that again. Case dismissed.") because, while she doesn't carry a badge, she does -- like most of us here, including tman -- carry a little plastic card in her wallet. Yup, if Tman (or I) were to carry a gun past the metal detectors at the HCSO, neither one of us would be guilty of a crime. In his case, it's because he's got a badge (well, actually, it's because he's got the status as an LEO of which the badge is evidence); in my case, it's because I've got the same plastic card as this permit holder does and because, long ago, I sent in a single sheet of paper to the former HennCo County Sheriff, giving my required notice. (I might or might not be in violation of a judge's order; that's another issue.) And that's why I think that the slap on the wrist is appropriate, in this case -- because the difference between what she did and what I hypothetically would have done is just that sheet of paper. It doesn't symbolize any special status for me -- it just makes me a permit holder who has given notice to the sheriff. I don't get hit with a felony charge....well, actually, I might -- but I've got an awfully good defense; it's the same one that Tman has: the law that forbids carry in a court excepts people like me, and like him, and a few other folks. The only reason it doesn't except her is that she hasn't sent in that sheet of paper. So, yeah: I think letting this go is appropriate, under the circumstances if -- and only if -- you believe her story: that it was just a matter of forgetting where the gun was. (I do.) That's not an okay thing to do, but I don't think that the combination of that and the lack of having sent in that letter is an offense to public order that in any way rises to one that should be handled by a punishment that includes becoming a convicted felon. I'm not saying that forgetting where one's gun is is okay; it isn't. I'm certainly not saying that permit holders should, as a general policy, be given a pass when they break the law; I don't think that they should. Special rules for "special people?" Nah. That's not okay in HennCo, any more than it is in Ramsey. But I do think that the interest of justice pretty clearly argue that a permit holder who is in violation of the law simply by failing to give notice really isn't, by virtue of that, the sort of person who should become a convicted felon. I don't -- at all -- blame the HennCo CA's office for not dropping the charge immediately. They have a responsibility to satisfy themselves as to the facts of the case, before deciding what they see the interest of justice is. And if they reasonably determine that she's full of it -- that, say, while they can't necessarily prove it in court beyond a reasonable doubt, she really was trying to sneak a gun past security for some nefarious purpose -- they'd be right to push the charge. But if they do determine that this was really just a mistake, I think the only reasonable thing to do would be to drop the felony charge. I think, Joel, that you and I basically agree that there shouldn't be a conviction, assuming that she DID forget and IS a permit holder.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:00 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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tman065 wrote: I think, Joel, that you and I basically agree that there shouldn't be a conviction, assuming that she DID forget and IS a permit holder. I think so, too.
_________________ Just a guy.
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Dick Unger
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:37 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am Posts: 2444 Location: West Central MN
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It just seems that if there should not be a conviction, there should not be a prosecution. In the meantime, she has a pending felony charge, she can't leave the state or carry or get a security cleareance or even make long term plans. I wouldn't loan her money or hire her if I knew about a pending felony. The signed court paperwork represents a lie, basically, because nobody believes in it, especially the notice of the "maximum sentence" in the Complaint. The reason, of course, is that the prosecutors are afraid to disappoint some cop who thinks he caught a big fish, so it gets charged and delayed until the cop settles down, and the prosecutor can blame the court system if the cop is still disatisfied. And if she complains too effectively, or can't stand the pressure, she'll actually get convicted. I don't want the people who work for my government to be so weak they think they need to act this way.
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tman065
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:01 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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Dick Unger wrote: It just seems that if there should not be a conviction, there should not be a prosecution. Believe me when I tell you that I make full use of my "officer discretion" where appropriate. I have yet to excuse a felony. Quote: In the meantime, she has a pending felony charge, she can't leave the state or carry or get a security cleareance or even make long term plans. I wouldn't loan her money or hire her if I knew about a pending felony. If she follows the court's guidelines, she will eventually have no conviction. She could certainly seek permission to travel outside the state. I've seen it granted regularly. Quote: The signed court paperwork represents a lie, basically, because nobody believes in it, especially the notice of the "maximum sentence" in the Complaint. The reason, of course, is that the prosecutors are afraid to disappoint some cop who thinks he caught a big fish, so it gets charged and delayed until the cop settles down, and the prosecutor can blame the court system if the cop is still disatisfied. And if she complains too effectively, or can't stand the pressure, she'll actually get convicted. Pure speculation. Maybe I need to reread the article, but I didn't see where it mentioned that the court deputies were doing a touchdown dance over this charge. Quote: I don't want the people who work for my government to be so weak they think they need to act this way. I don't see where prosecuting a felony is weak, but I guess it goes to the heart of our disagreement on this case.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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Maverick68
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:33 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:25 pm Posts: 33
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Ok. So maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night. I am struggling to keep track of this. I go to the Hennepin County Courthouse probably 1-2 times per week and disarm before I enter. These details could make life easier or at least avert major problems (felony vs contempt of court) if I forget I am carrying. Like many of us, my holster/firearm is now as comfortable/normal as carrying my cell phone, if I was pre-occupied on my cell phone and just stopping in to pick up docs at the front area of the building, I could absolutely see myself hitting the door and going "oh s**t". Here's my questions: joelr wrote: in my case, it's because I've got the same plastic card as this permit holder does and because, long ago, I sent in a single sheet of paper to the former HennCo County Sheriff, giving my required notice. (I might or might not be in violation of a judge's order; that's another issue.) *Joel-Saw the letter form later in this thread (thank you), how do you know that they still have your letter on file? Did they send you confirmation? Do you keep a copy on your person? *Does the restriction to carry apply to anywhere in the building or only on the secured side of the screening (ie, if I go into the main floor and sit by the fountain armed, is that also in violation?) Another question: plblark wrote: An aside: Ramsey County seems to have workable system in place to handle this. I was called for Jury Duty a couple weeks ago and here's how it worked out. I sent my notification letter to Ramsey County Sheriff Bob Fletcher the same day my Jury notification came in. I also printed 2 copies to take with me to the courthouse. Upon arrival at the courthouse, I had a deputy read my notification letter and sign and date it with his badge number. I kept this copy as a receipt and left the other with the deputy for his records. I presented my State Issued ID and Carry permit to the deputy. The deputy found the keys to the lock boxes they keep at the North and South main entrances and I placed my firearm and cellular phone along with a business card into the locked box. The deputy locked things up, I proceeded through the metal detector without incident and proceeded to Jury Duty. At the end of the day, I presented my ID and the deputy on duty unlocked the box. Easy as pie. I performed 5 days of Jury Duty and things ran pretty smoothly.
*Why did you chose to go through this process instead of locking the firearm in your car? *Did you show up day 1 CC'ing with your letter? Did you have any concern that said Deputy reading the letter would not understand and head the wrong direction with fact you were CC'ing? *You you believe this same process would work for Hennepin County? Thanks!
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plblark
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:33 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:41 am Posts: 4468
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Good questions: Maverick68 wrote: *Why did you chose to go through this process instead of locking the firearm in your car? 1) A right not exercised is a right lost. I was honestly trying for a subtle "This is no big deal" example without being preachy or demanding. I chose to go through the process as a form of safe activism. I wanted to be well dressed, well groomed, knowledgable, and the politest, safest, most with it permit holder they ever ran into. I hoped to help make the process more routine for more deputies. I dealt with the same 2 security guys every day but think I dealt with 7 or 8 different deputies over the course of my Jury Duty. Some of them only once, but some of them multiple times (If you leave the building, you HAVE to pick it up. Then you have to ccheck it back in.) Maverick68 wrote: *Did you show up day 1 CC'ing with your letter? Did you have any concern that said Deputy reading the letter would not understand and head the wrong direction with fact you were CC'ing? 2) I unloaded and locked it in my wife's vehicle and had her drop me off. Then I asked the Security guys how it works (not the deputies ... might get a different story) Then I went to the deputy and said: Moi: "Morning, Deputy, The guys over there tell me the process for checking a firearm is x, y, z. How do I go about doing that?" Deputy: "It would be easier if you just left it at home." Moi: "Thank you for the advice. How does the process work? IS there a secure or safe area where I unload? How would you prefer I handle it / notify / identify myself when dropping it off / picking it up?" Deputy: "You need to have your permit and DL. There is no secure area to unload. This is it. " Moi: "Thanks. By the way, I sent in my letter but here's a copy I'd like you to sign as received, just in case. Here's a copy for you to keep or leave at the desk. I'd hate to have a felony issue when a simple letter can CYA ya know. Could I get a business card." Deputy: "Here you go" Moi: "Thank you Deputy Sxxxxxx. Have a good day." I was definitely in check it out and CYA mode. It was not until Day 3 in the afternoon that another deputy asked me for my letter. Deputy B: "HAve you sent us your letter?" Moi: "Yes, and on Monday I brought a copy to leave with Deputy Sxxxxxx at the desk and had him sign one as a receipt. Can't be too careful. Would you like to see it?" Maverick68 wrote: *You you believe this same process would work for Hennepin County? 3) I don't know. It sure should, it's a simple process. Of course, EVERY day one of the deputies had to ask the security guys where the keys were. I was lucky in that I assume several people, probably lawyers or people at the court house regularly have used the system or are responsible for it being set up. I don't know that, but it's a strong suspicion.
_________________ Certified Carry Permit Instructor (MNTactics.com and ShootingSafely.com) Click here for current Carry Classes "There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edwin Burke
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Maverick68
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:43 am |
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:25 pm Posts: 33
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plblark- I love it. That was a perfect way to test/practice your "safe activism". Not to sound goofy, but you da' man!
I will have to decide if I have the courage to do the same at Hennepin County.
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plblark
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:01 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:41 am Posts: 4468
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fortunately, I didn't have to do it cold, there were already lock boxes and a system in place. I don't know how I would have played it if there wasn't already a system in place. but I intended to ask.
da man? Na. There was no risk, so it was easy just to be a good example. The hard work would be getting such a system in place without alienating people overly much.
_________________ Certified Carry Permit Instructor (MNTactics.com and ShootingSafely.com) Click here for current Carry Classes "There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edwin Burke
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CustomEclipseII
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Post subject: Re: Woman Brings Loaded Gun into Hennepin Co. Court Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:46 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:04 pm Posts: 26 Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Going off of what Dick Unger said about the statute not defining "notice" and the fact that she confessed to "forgetting" that the pistol was there:
I wonder if she could argue that she thought the metal detectors and x-ray machine were specifically there to "so notify the sheriff" that she was carrying pursuant to her valid permit to carry. Presumably the sole purpose of these machines is to detect certain objects before they come into the courthouse complex...
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This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.
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