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Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment
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RobD
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Post subject: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:59 am |
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Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:41 pm Posts: 234 Location: Apple-Mount Farming-Ville
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http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/07/democrats_defeat_concealed_wea.html?hpid=topnewsQuote: By Paul Kane By the narrowest of margins, the Senate's liberal bloc of Democrats defeated an amendment that would have allowed gun owners to carry their weapons across state lines without regard for stricter laws in many jurisdictions, giving preference to states with looser standards.
In a 58-39 vote, supporters of the looser gun law -- including all but two Republicans and almost 20 moderate Democrats -- fell two votes short of the 60 they needed to approve the measure. The amendment, sponsored by Sen. John Thune (R-S.D.), showed the bitter divisions among a Democratic caucus that now holds 60 seats, many of whom got to the Senate by winning in conservative states as they proudly supported gun rights. It also divided the party's leadership, as Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (R-Nev.), campaigning for re-election in 2010, sided with gun rights supporters. His top lieutenants, Sens. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), led the push against the measure.
Even in defeat, the debate demonstrated the continued power of the National Rifle Association and gun rights advocates in Congress, because the Thune amendment was considered the most far reaching federal effort ever proposed to expand laws to allow weapons ownership.
Offered as an amendment to the annual defense authorization bill, it would allow people to carry concealed firearms across state lines, provided they "have a valid permit or if, under their state of residence ... are entitled to do so." This means that someone who had a concealed-carry permit for his gun in a state like Vermont -- with some of the loosest gun-control laws in the nation -- could cross over into other states with their guns and not be found guilty of violating those states' tighter gun laws.
"This carefully tailored amendment will ensure that a state's border is not a limit to an individual's fundamental right and will allow law-abiding individuals to travel without complication throughout the 48 states that already permit some form of conceal and carry," Thune said during Wednesdays' sometimes heated debate.
Big-city mayors, such as New York's Michael Bloomberg, led a furious lobbying effort to try to derail the amendment, along with gun-victims groups, such as the families of students killed in the 2007 shootings at Virginia Tech University. Bloomberg, in a letter to Reid, noted that at least 31 states prohibit alcohol abusers from obtaining concealed-carry permits; at least 35 states bar people convicted of certain misdemeanors from becoming gun owners; and at least 31 states require people to complete gun-safety programs before securing a weapons permit.
In a rare instance in which they trumpeted states' rights, Democrats noted that 36 states have specific laws regarding these gun permits and include specific lists of which states' permits they will recognize. "The states already have laws. Under the Thune amendment, those laws could be ignored. So if the Thune amendment becomes law, people who are currently prohibited from carrying concealed guns in those 36 states are free to do so. It is absurd that we are considering this," Durbin, the majority whip, said.
Democrats, who have traditionally championed gun control as a way to reduce crime, are suffering from their own political success of the past two elections. Schumer served as chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee for the 2006 and 2008 election cycles, specifically recruiting supporters of the Second Amendment to run in states where gun ownership is common. Going from 45 seats in the fall of 2006 to 60 seats this summer, Democrats now have about 25 senators who are strong supporters of gun rights.
During the debate, Schumer offered the theoretical example of a gang member in New York City moving to Vermont and establishing residency there, then buying guns and transporting them back to New York.
"The reality of that particular situation is the gang members already have their guns.... The people who need this bill are the ones that the gang members might be threatening," countered Sen. James Webb (D-Va.), a supporter of the Second Amendment whose support from Schumer was crucial to his 2006 victory, which gave Democrats their Senate majority.
Faced with a difficult re-election battle next year in what is regarded as a pro-gun state, Reid told reporters Tuesday he would support the measure but then refused to explain why.
Republicans have already succeeded twice this year in rolling back restrictions on guns with substantial backing from those moderate to conservative Democrats elected in 2006 and 2008. In February, 22 Senate Democrats joined Republicans to stall the District's quest for House voting rights by demanding that the legislation also ease D.C. gun restrictions.
The National Rifle Association called Thune's amendment "important and timely pro-gun reform" and urged a yes vote.
_________________ NRA Instructor (BP, PPITH, PPOTH, Shothell + Metallic Reloading, RSO) Certified Glock Armorer
MNbasecamp.com - Minnesota Outdoors Community
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Sietch
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:30 am |
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:05 pm Posts: 199 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Motherfuckers. I watched it happen live. I'm so fucking mad. I couldn't believe it when I saw the numbers. I could strangle those two who lazed out. Sure there were certainly several Maybe Votes, but among those, two were most likely, by rights, to do the right thing, whoever they are.
On the other hand, I didn't like the precedent it suggested as concerns the rights of States. Of course, looking at it from yet another angle I think that those rights ended a long time ago, and that this might have been at least one good turn to come out of the Big Federal trend. I'm conflicted, and I wonder what comes along next.
RANT COMPLETE... END TRANSMISSION
_________________ "My name is Shosanna Dreyfus. This is the face of Jewish vengeance."
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Lenny7
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:40 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:09 am Posts: 1060 Location: Savage, MN
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Quote: Big-city mayors, such as New York's Michael Bloomberg, led a furious lobbying effort to try to derail the amendment, along with gun-victims groups, such as the families of students killed in the 2007 shootings at Virginia Tech University. Nice reporting bias there....I have never heard of anyone being a gun victim.
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gunflint
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:49 am |
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Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:00 am Posts: 1094 Location: Duluth
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One Dem Senator stated that he wanted to make sure that one state's laws don't trump another. That's alright with me senator, just remember that when it comes to gay marriage.
_________________ "I wish it to be remembered that I was the last man of my tribe to surrender my rifle" Sitting Bull
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:12 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Bear in mind that not all Dems were against this. Lumping all folks from any one party together doesn't accomplish anything for us.
Two Republicans crossed party lines and voted against. By my count, TWENTY Dems crossed party lines and voted in favor.
So quit the party bashing on this one. Facts don't support it.
We need to be blasting the people that voted against, and rewarding those (ESPECIALLY the Dems) who voted for. Training a politician is an awful lot like training a pet. Reward them when they do good, and they come to associate positive results with certain issues.
-Mark
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sheepdog
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:19 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:25 pm Posts: 367 Location: Forest Lake, MN
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:30 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Lenny7
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:41 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:09 am Posts: 1060 Location: Savage, MN
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I just got this from the VPC. Emphasis is mine. Quote: To Violence Policy Center Action Network Members: Thank you! Earlier today, the U.S. Senate defeated a National Rifle Association-backed measure sponsored by South Dakota Senator John Thune that would have created a nationalized concealed handgun permitting system--and your calls helped make the difference! Below, please find the press release issued by the VPC following this important victory. Click here to see how your Senators voted: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/r ... fm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00237 Thank you again for helping make this victory possible. Sincerely, Josh Sugarmann Executive Director *** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 Violence Policy Center Statement on Defeat of Thune Amendment Creating National Concealed Handgun System Washington, DC--Following today's Senate vote defeating the Thune Amendment, which would have created a nationalized concealed handgun permitting system, the Violence Policy Center issued the following statement by VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand: "Today's Senate vote is a victory for those who support a sane national gun policy. "Concealed carry permit holders have already killed police officers, murdered innocent citizens, and committed mass shootings. "The Thune Amendment would have nullified laws in states such as New York and California that have tough standards for the issuance of concealed handgun permits. Those states would have been forced to allow the carrying of concealed handguns within their borders by people with permits issued by states with the lowest standards, such as Idaho and Florida. The amendment would have also undermined state assault weapons bans because it would have allowed permit holders to carry concealed assault weapons into the seven states that currently ban these guns. "The danger of the Thune amendment is demonstrated by the fact that proponents of a nationalized concealed carry system argue that lax concealed handgun laws are the answer to mass shootings, but the hard facts are that concealed handgun permit holders do not prevent mass shootings, they perpetrate them."Earlier this week, the VPC released a new study ( http://www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf) showing that concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009. Among the study's findings-- o Over the two-year period May 2007 through April 2009, concealed handgun permit holders have slain seven law enforcement officers resulting in criminal charges or the suicide of the shooter. All of the killings were committed with guns. An additional three law enforcement officers were injured in these incidents. o Over the two-year period May 2007 through April 2009, concealed handgun permit holders have slain at least 44 private citizens resulting in criminal charges or the suicide of the shooter. All but one of the killings were committed with guns. An additional six private citizens were injured in these incidents. o In six of the 31 incidents (19 percent), the concealed handgun permit holder killed himself, bringing the total fatality count to 57. o Five of the incidents were mass shootings resulting in the deaths of 23 victims. *** The Violence Policy Center is a national educational organization which lies like mother fuckers to take away your rights. --END-
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Greg
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:28 pm |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:13 pm Posts: 874 Location: Minneapolis
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mrokern wrote: Bear in mind that not all Dems were against this. Lumping all folks from any one party together doesn't accomplish anything for us.
Two Republicans crossed party lines and voted against. By my count, TWENTY Dems crossed party lines and voted in favor.
So quit the party bashing on this one. Facts don't support it.
We need to be blasting the people that voted against, and rewarding those (ESPECIALLY the Dems) who voted for. Training a politician is an awful lot like training a pet. Reward them when they do good, and they come to associate positive results with certain issues.
-Mark And smack them in the snout with a rolled up newspaper when they screw up!
_________________ Diesel Boats (and Tube Radios) Forever!
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sheepdog
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:31 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:25 pm Posts: 367 Location: Forest Lake, MN
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Thanks, Mark. I had a hunch that was BS. Looking through the thread you linked to above, I checked out the article that Mr. Rothman posted which basically rips that ideological propaganda to shreds. Now Big Media is quoting this shit as facts. This is all very disappointing.
_________________ Pork Chop Sandwiches!
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sigman
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:27 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:20 am Posts: 1317 Location: Racine, MN
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If there ever was any doubt that Franken is anti-gun rights, it is gone now. Amy and Al, what a disgusting pair. Who in the hell votes for these people? Wake up Minnesota!
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Apparition
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:54 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:34 am Posts: 19
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Akaka (D-HI), Nay Alexander (R-TN), Yea Barrasso (R-WY), Yea Baucus (D-MT), Yea Bayh (D-IN), Yea Begich (D-AK), Yea Bennet (D-CO), Yea Bennett (R-UT), Yea Bingaman (D-NM), Nay Bond (R-MO), Yea Boxer (D-CA), Nay Brown (D-OH), Nay Brownback (R-KS), Yea Bunning (R-KY), Yea Burr (R-NC), Yea Burris (D-IL), Nay Byrd (D-WV), Not Voting Cantwell (D-WA), Nay Cardin (D-MD), Nay Carper (D-DE), Nay Casey (D-PA), Yea Chambliss (R-GA), Yea Coburn (R-OK), Yea Cochran (R-MS), Yea Collins (R-ME), Yea Conrad (D-ND), Yea Corker (R-TN), Yea Cornyn (R-TX), Yea Crapo (R-ID), Yea DeMint (R-SC), Yea Dodd (D-CT), Nay Dorgan (D-ND), Yea Durbin (D-IL), Nay Ensign (R-NV), Yea Enzi (R-WY), Yea Feingold (D-WI), Yea Feinstein (D-CA), Nay Franken (D-MN), Nay Gillibrand (D-NY), Nay Graham (R-SC), Yea Grassley (R-IA), Yea Gregg (R-NH), Yea Hagan (D-NC), Yea Harkin (D-IA), Nay Hatch (R-UT), Yea Hutchison (R-TX), Yea Inhofe (R-OK), Yea Inouye (D-HI), Nay Isakson (R-GA), Yea Johanns (R-NE), Yea Johnson (D-SD), Yea Kaufman (D-DE), Nay Kennedy (D-MA), Not Voting Kerry (D-MA), Nay Klobuchar (D-MN), Nay Kohl (D-WI), Nay Kyl (R-AZ), Yea Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay Leahy (D-VT), Nay Levin (D-MI), Nay Lieberman (ID-CT), Nay Lincoln (D-AR), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Nay Martinez (R-FL), Yea McCain (R-AZ), Yea McCaskill (D-MO), Nay McConnell (R-KY), Yea Menendez (D-NJ), Nay Merkley (D-OR), Nay Mikulski (D-MD), Not Voting Murkowski (R-AK), Yea Murray (D-WA), Nay Nelson (D-FL), Nay Nelson (D-NE), Yea Pryor (D-AR), Yea Reed (D-RI), Nay Reid (D-NV), Yea Risch (R-ID), Yea Roberts (R-KS), Yea Rockefeller (D-WV), Nay Sanders (I-VT), Nay Schumer (D-NY), Nay Sessions (R-AL), Yea Shaheen (D-NH), Nay Shelby (R-AL), Yea Snowe (R-ME), Yea Specter (D-PA), Nay Stabenow (D-MI), Nay Tester (D-MT), Yea Thune (R-SD), Yea Udall (D-CO), Yea Udall (D-NM), Yea Vitter (R-LA), Yea Voinovich (R-OH), Nay Warner (D-VA), Yea Webb (D-VA), Yea Whitehouse (D-RI), Nay Wicker (R-MS), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Nay
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motoman
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:25 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:19 pm Posts: 333
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So Franken steals an election and this is what we get..... Who voted for this fool????
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Democrats Defeat Concealed Weapons Amendment Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:06 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Eh, even if he'd been a moderate it was going to happen.
No way a new senator bucks the party on his first controversial vote.
Sucks regardless.
-Mark
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Tabsr
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Post subject: Klobe and Franken Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:42 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:50 am Posts: 125
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Will you vote for thier relection?
_________________ "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains." Winston Churchill
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