Fire sprinklers in single-family homes
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MostlyHarmless
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Post subject: Fire sprinklers in single-family homes Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:29 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm Posts: 471 Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
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Recently I've been reading up on the use of automatic sprinklers for fire protection in houses. The evidence for their benefits in life safety and prevention of property damage are so compelling that I am amazed that there has not been more widespread adoption.
The most compelling study on this is here:
www.nfsa.org/info/sprinklers.PDF
I'm tempted to retrofit them into my house and cancel my homeowners' insurance. The likelihood of the sprinklers limiting losses to a managable level appears to be quite a bit higher than the likelihood of getting a fair settlement on the insurance in the event of a substantial loss.
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Erik_Pakieser
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:17 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:16 am Posts: 364 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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A fire chief told me that these are being added to the code for new construction; I haven't looked into it.
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tman065
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:14 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am Posts: 810 Location: Northern MN
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Erik_Pakieser wrote: A fire chief told me that these are being added to the code for new construction; I haven't looked into it.
I have heard that as well. Someone said it will add about $5,000 to the cost of a new house.
People are fighting it. Kinda like seatbelts and helmets.
_________________ Proud, Service Oriented, Rural LEO, or "BADGED COWBOY" Certified MN Carry Permit Instructor
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:44 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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If I was building today, I'd have them put in. It's just good common sense.
We wear seatbelts (in theory) to protect ourselves in the event of a crash.
We wear helmets (in theory) to protect ourselves in the event of a crash or fall.
We carry guns to protect ourselves in the event of a violent crime.
Why not install sprinklers given the choice?
-Mark
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1911fan
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:46 pm |
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On time out |
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:18 pm Posts: 1689 Location: 35 W and Hiway 10
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point one,
In a properly sprinkled building, there has never been a documented loss of life to fire or smoke.
POint two, there are two ways to sprinkle a house, by zone or whole house. doing a few zones can be statistically just as effective as doing the whole house. Kitchen, basement. egress routes can be done very inexpensively.
Point three, $5K would be a retro fit. New construction, done as the house is built can be as low as $1500 bucks.
Cancelling your house insurance would be stupid. you would get a very large reduction in premiums based on fire coverage, but a good percentage of your homeowners is liability insurance for someone getting hurt on your property. You have a dog and kids and your dog knocks neighbor Timmy down the stairs, and he ends up a quad, your homeowners will save your life. Plus if you have a mortgage, no bank is going to allow you to cancel your HO insurance.
My last house was retro fitted by myself, then passed by a licensed contractor. My current one will be by next year.
_________________ molan labe
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Greg
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:47 pm |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:13 pm Posts: 874 Location: Minneapolis
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_________________ Diesel Boats (and Tube Radios) Forever!
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:51 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Because a scraped knee isn't likely to kill me, and if I fall down and go boom-boom I likely brought it on myself (I don't have kids yet, so I can't blame them).
Burning to death is a bit more frightening, and I may not have caused the fire.
-Mark
EDIT and ADD: I'm not saying it needs to be in the code, mind you. I'm saying that I *personally* would have it added to my residence given the chance.
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MostlyHarmless
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:57 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm Posts: 471 Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
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1911fan wrote: point one,
In a properly sprinkled building, there has never been a documented loss of life to fire or smoke.
In general I believe that's true. There have been some exceptions, firefighters for one, and individual people who were unfortunate enough to be in the immediate vicinity of the fire when it ignited. Quote: POint two, there are two ways to sprinkle a house, by zone or whole house. doing a few zones can be statistically just as effective as doing the whole house. Kitchen, basement. egress routes can be done very inexpensively.
Point three, $5K would be a retro fit. New construction, done as the house is built can be as low as $1500 bucks.
Yes, it's mainly labor and pipe, and the CPVC and PEX pipe they use is cheap and quick to install. Quote: Cancelling your house insurance would be stupid. you would get a very large reduction in premiums based on fire coverage, but a good percentage of your homeowners is liability insurance for someone getting hurt on your property. You have a dog and kids and your dog knocks neighbor Timmy down the stairs, and he ends up a quad, your homeowners will save your life.
There are premises liability policies that are much cheaper than standard homeowners' policies.
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Greg
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:06 pm |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:13 pm Posts: 874 Location: Minneapolis
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mrokern wrote: Because a scraped knee isn't likely to kill me, and if I fall down and go boom-boom I likely brought it on myself (I don't have kids yet, so I can't blame them). Burning to death is a bit more frightening, and I may not have caused the fire. -Mark EDIT and ADD: I'm not saying it needs to be in the code, mind you. I'm saying that I *personally* would have it added to my residence given the chance.
If it's not in the Code it's fine with me if people want to add it themselves.
I would think twice, I spend lots of time on the road and have had two motels flood out due to sprinklers. I'm more worried about water damage than about dying in a fire. Having the motel phone ring after a long day, swinging my feet onto the floor and finding ankle deep water was weird. Lucky for me that I'd just got in and all my stuff other than a pair of socks was up off the floor.
That said, I've got extinguishers on all floors and a smoke/CO alarm system wired together on all floors too. My boiler, water heater, stove and wiring are all installed by myself to better than code requirements and my house is solid masonry.
_________________ Diesel Boats (and Tube Radios) Forever!
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:19 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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Greg wrote: mrokern wrote: Because a scraped knee isn't likely to kill me, and if I fall down and go boom-boom I likely brought it on myself (I don't have kids yet, so I can't blame them). Burning to death is a bit more frightening, and I may not have caused the fire. -Mark EDIT and ADD: I'm not saying it needs to be in the code, mind you. I'm saying that I *personally* would have it added to my residence given the chance. If it's not in the Code it's fine with me if people want to add it themselves. I would think twice, I spend lots of time on the road and have had two motels flood out due to sprinklers. I'm more worried about water damage than about dying in a fire. Having the motel phone ring after a long day, swinging my feet onto the floor and finding ankle deep water was weird. Lucky for me that I'd just got in and all my stuff other than a pair of socks was up off the floor. That said, I've got extinguishers on all floors and a smoke/CO alarm system wired together on all floors too. My boiler, water heater, stove and wiring are all installed by myself to better than code requirements and my house is solid masonry.
I'm in rental, so no sprinklers for me now.
That said, like you I do have extinguishers, smoke and CO alarms, and we also have a window ladder (we're on the 3rd floor).
-Mark
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1911fan
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:54 pm |
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On time out |
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:18 pm Posts: 1689 Location: 35 W and Hiway 10
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I think the backlash against code is based on a lot of fallacies.
really the US building code sucks. for a whole lot of reasons. but that is not the question.
The hotel you were in with water damage probably had someone mucking with the systems. a dry break system, where their is no water in the pipes until you are below grade, and just a large CO2 bubble in the pipes holding the water back, is remarkable stable and maintenance free.
you mention plastic piping, I do not believe that is code in MN for sprinklers. it should be hard pipe with braised or threaded connectors.
After I posted this, I went to my suppliers website and they are selling CPVC here, so maybe the code has changed. As I said, its been a few years since I was on that side of the business.
Second, most modern sprinklers are not like the movies. there is not curtain of water flooding down. its a mist,in which a very low amount of water is converted to mist which keeps the air temps and humidity levels high enough that extra combustion does not take place. The fire may not go out, but it never spreads in a flash over, consuming the house, and the activation also triggers a secondary alarm, so that if the smokes did not catch the fire, the alarm goes off with the sprinklers. There was a company that had made sprinkler heads that whistled insanely loud from the escape of the water, and thus were self "alarming." I have not been on that side of construction for while but that was a cool idea in my book.
In general, it does not matter what the manner of construction is for the house fire to be deadly. Its the furnishings that burn, and all that nice upholstered furniture, books, appliances, carpet, etc are what burns, and they burn for the most part, extremely "dirty".
The homeowners policy that does not have the fire coverage would be about the same price as the cost of sprinkled home insurance. The killer in fires is smoke, and that comes from furnishings.
_________________ molan labe
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kecker
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:21 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:57 am Posts: 818 Location: Apple Valley, MN
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Just on general principle I don't like anyone dictating to me how I build my house.
Sure it makes sense to include them, for both safety and resale. But that should be my choice.
_________________ http://www.eckernet.com My mind is like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.
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Jeremiah
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:47 am |
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Raving Moderate |
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:46 pm Posts: 1292 Location: Minneapolis
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From a bumper sticked I saw yesterday (on the car of someone who installs sprinklers):
Quote: Lawn sprinklers save your grass- fire sprinklers save your ass.
_________________ I'm liberal, pro-choice, and I carry a gun. Any questions?
My real name is Jeremiah (go figure).
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mnglocker
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:26 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:04 pm Posts: 1682 Location: Wright County
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1911fan wrote: Cancelling your house insurance would be stupid. you would get a very large reduction in premiums based on fire coverage, but a good percentage of your homeowners is liability insurance for someone getting hurt on your property. You have a dog and kids and your dog knocks neighbor Timmy down the stairs, and he ends up a quad, your homeowners will save your life. Plus if you have a mortgage, no bank is going to allow you to cancel your HO insurance.
My last house was retro fitted by myself, then passed by a licensed contractor. My current one will be by next year.
Not only that, but when one of those sprinklers starts to leak or breaks when you're away, it get's expensive real quick.
_________________ Get Off My Lawn.
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morgasco
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:06 am |
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Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:23 pm Posts: 29 Location: Lakeville/Apple Valley
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I don't think the probability of a sprinkler done correctly leaking or breaking is as great as the inline water filters, etc that people install themselves. Those things can rack up a lot of damage in just a few hours.
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