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PSA: K-9s http://forum.twincitiescarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11805 |
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Author: | cmxterra [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:32 am ] |
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fun read. Good info |
Author: | Hunter07 [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:51 am ] |
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Yep, good read. When I lived in Augsburg Germany, I had a retired Berlin police dog (German Shepherd). He was pretty tough and pretty much impossible to 'take down' when we wrestled. A few times he got a grip on me and wouldn't let go until the wife called him off. ![]() Damn good dog though. Very protective of my family. |
Author: | Macx [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:33 am ] |
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Good post. I'll add - had the opportunity to be a target for a police dog exercise once. It was during my field ed for my Criminal Justice degree. Myself and three others were given 15 or so minutes to hide in a Fleet Farm-like store . . . acting as burglars whose lookout gave a good warning. Even ontop of the tires way up in the racks with all those other strong odors in that department, I was the last "burglar" found but I was found. The farm store owners had made an agreement with three departments to do an exercise while they were closed. Very cool stuff. |
Author: | Long Ago LEO [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:36 pm ] |
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Enjoyed the read - and FWIW, share a vehicle and home with such a creature; although not a herder and can't be lifted into an attic anymore. He was a successful experiment, but still too large for effective LE work. As I've commented on here previously, if he had a mind to (and I had a mind to let him), he could leave me very little to shoot if a BG breached our space. I'd wager Lesnar would give him a tussle, but would ultimately need a boatload of stitches. ![]() |
Author: | JGalt [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: PSA: K-9s |
Sietch wrote: "holy SHIT! They're using bears now..." Well now you did it - that is the first thing I've read on line that nearly caused me a coffee-spewed-onto-the-keyboard moment. Damn, that is funny. |
Author: | Sietch [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:43 pm ] |
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Hunter 07 wrote: I had a retired Berlin police dog (German Shepherd). Macx wrote: I'll add - had the opportunity to be a target for a police dog exercise once. Ha. Yep. I've had the privilege (structured misfortune?) of throwing my overweight around with a Bernese Mountain/Newfoundland mix. I still remember distinctly feeling that my life was every bit at his discretion, and that he considered my walking away to speak volumes about what a gracious dog he is. He was pretty cute though, in that monster-with-a-heart-of-gold kind of way. Long Ago LEO wrote: He was a successful experiment, but still too large for effective LE work. And yeah, not too quick on his feet but a nightmare nonetheless. |
Author: | Sietch [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:48 pm ] |
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JGalt wrote: Well now you did it - that is the first thing I've read on line that nearly caused me a coffee-spewed-onto-the-keyboard moment. Damn, that is funny. Well thank you. I do try ![]() |
Author: | Dick Unger [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:54 am ] |
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I know the military used to train some special forces how to kill a single attack dog with just hands. I think SEALS used to have to actually kill a dog to complete training; at least, a guy I know did that in the late 70's. You have to be standing, proactive, and immediately and confidently attack the dog. Don't wait for him to start. Grab the lower jaw, lift the dog and break the neck. The important thing is don't go down yourself and always be lifting the dog up, so he can't get set. You out weigh him, and if you've got the lower jaw he can't shake. Your hand goes in the mouth, over the teeth and you fingers and thumb wrap the bottom of the jaw. Use both hands. If you do go down, you can break a front leg by a sideways bend. I suppose they didn't use the best dogs for this, but he said killing a German Shepherd was pretty easy, and no one in his group had any trouble with the excercise. But of course they were all big and bad guys, wearing armor and had instructors to save them. |
Author: | Sietch [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:03 pm ] |
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Dick Unger wrote: I know the military used to train some special forces how to kill a single attack dog with just hands. I think SEALS used to have to actually kill a dog to complete training; at least, a guy I know did that in the late 70's. You have to be standing, proactive, and immediately and confidently attack the dog. Don't wait for him to start. Grab the lower jaw, lift the dog and break the neck. The important thing is don't go down yourself and always be lifting the dog up, so he can't get set. You out weigh him, and if you've got the lower jaw he can't shake. Your hand goes in the mouth, over the teeth and you fingers and thumb wrap the bottom of the jaw. Use both hands. If you do go down, you can break a front leg by a sideways bend. I suppose they didn't use the best dogs for this, but he said killing a German Shepherd was pretty easy, and no one in his group had any trouble with the excercise. But of course they were all big and bad guys, wearing armor and had instructors to save them. Alright. wow. But that's fair. Nobody I know has any delusions about how they might measure against a Navy SEAL. What's described above is ridiculous and I've never heard of that. But my father's always hung out with his reliquary of SF guys from the war and yeah, their physicality is also ridiculous, so I can believe it. I'm sure it's not impossible and if you say so I've no reason to doubt it. I would love to see something like that. I'm not sure I'd be man enough to try that with a dog. But for the average Joe, I'm pretty sure it is for all intents and purposes impossible, unwise at the very least. It's not a secret that I've tooled around with dogs, but this might be (I do not endorse attempting): the best way as I know to hand-fight a trained dog--and as I've seen this it's still 50/50--is to look him in the eye, stand much in a shooting stance, but with your weak side (left, for me) to the dog, and hold your left hand in front of you, as though holding a weapon. Exaggerate it. I'm talking about mime work here. The objective in this case is not unlike that of a matador with a bull. You're baiting him. If you can make the case that you're prepared to strike, he'll jump for your would-be weapon arm. You'll plan on this, and rotate your body toward as he lunges, removing your weak arm from his attack path and moving to strike his torso/spine with your strong side. That's almost a fantasy. A more likely option is to try for a hold on him as he moves past you and then strangle him. And he should be dead before you let go. If he wakes up he'll just pick up where he left off as though nothing happened and then you are pretty much dead to rights. You can't mindfuck a German Shepherd twice. Still, I've never seen this done the whole way through. So it's ultimately theoretical. I've never heard of anyone killing something in training. |
Author: | Fyrwys [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:48 pm ] |
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Quote: A more likely option is to try for a hold on him as he moves past you and then strangle him. And he should be dead before you let go. Yeah, after which point, refer back to: Quote: Kill a trainer's dog and it's open season on you and he has an unlimited license. Minus a gun, another dog stands a better chance than a person. What I don't undertand, and this certainly may have been previously discussed at length, is why, if the above were to happen, it would be considered/treated as assault on a peace officer, but when the JBTs indiscriminately and frequently shoot fido after the wrong house no-knock, its just a replaceable piece of property... |
Author: | tman065 [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:03 pm ] |
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Fyrwys wrote: What I don't undertand, and this certainly may have been previously discussed at length, is why, if the above were to happen, it would be considered/treated as assault on a peace officer, but when the JBTs indiscriminately and frequently shoot fido after the wrong house no-knock, its just a replaceable piece of property... They're protecting their investment. I think it's about $30,000 to purchase, train (dog & handler), and outfit a K9 pair. Give or take. Money talks I guess. Who knew? |
Author: | Fyrwys [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:10 pm ] |
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tman065 wrote: Fyrwys wrote: What I don't undertand, and this certainly may have been previously discussed at length, is why, if the above were to happen, it would be considered/treated as assault on a peace officer, but when the JBTs indiscriminately and frequently shoot fido after the wrong house no-knock, its just a replaceable piece of property... They're protecting their investment. I think it's about $30,000 to purchase, train (dog & handler), and outfit a K9 pair. Give or take. Money talks I guess. Who knew? I see. So if it was Stump, the Westminster champ, for example, then one could claim murder. |
Author: | Macx [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:26 pm ] |
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Nope, and they won't even pay to replace you doors after they kick them in on a phony tip. Different rules.. . . ![]() While I understand wanting to discourage the average thug from taking anti-canine measures (poison laced caltrops for example) the law does little to help the wrong house no-knock victim that gets the K-9 released into their abode and reacts in self defense. |
Author: | Long Ago LEO [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:20 pm ] |
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Most of the cops in my neck of the woods know my big boy (200-pound class that can look over a 6-foot fence)... nevertheless, any 911 call from my residence will include the fact that my canine has the BG engaged and to feel free to shoot at anything but the dog. Heck, even shoot at me for that matter (I return fire); just don't take out my pup. |
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