"Don't carry with handloaded ammunition"
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mobocracy
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Post subject: "Don't carry with handloaded ammunition" Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:15 pm |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:55 pm Posts: 986
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I've heard this many times, and the reasons stated are liability and reliability.
The liability argument as I've heard it basically when you are defending yourself (civilly, perhaps criminally) in court, the other side can claim that you purposefully loaded "more dangerous" ammunition to inflict greater bodily harm.
The reliability argument is that "premium" personal defense ammo made by wise elves in a factory somewhere always goes bang in an optimal way and has been precision loaded for optimum ballistics, etc, etc.
I don't know if I buy this. It's trivial to scientifically demonstrate that handloaded ammunition isn't worse than factory ammunition. In fact the evidence may show its loaded lighter/weaker than factory ammunition, which can be claimed as a plus.
As for reliability? I've had better functioning since I started loading my own ammo vs. mid-quality commercial ammo (CCI Blazer Brass, Fed American Eagle, etc).
Which brings up my third point -- practice, practice, practice. I can't see practicing with carry ammo @ ~$120 for a "case" of 200 rounds. I can see loading Speer Gold Dots for not much more money and 5 times as many rounds, enable practice ammo that's the same as carry ammo.
Can anyone cite specific cases where handloads cost someone their freedom? And cite what the specific circumstances were? I can believe that some hillbilly that loaded 15 grains of blue dot into a 45 auto case and set a primer into the hollow point would make his stiuation worse, but it stretches credibility to assume that handloaded ammunition loaded to normal safe loadings for a specific caliber would cause anyone any problems. But I'm willing to be wrong, too.
Last edited by mobocracy on Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steelheart
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:19 am |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:01 am Posts: 188 Location: south central Minnesota
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I've heard this question mentioned before. I've never heard of an actuall case sited or mentioned. It's always been hearsay.
Steelheart
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matt160
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:28 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:18 am Posts: 1086 Location: Anoka, MN
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mobocracy
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:32 am |
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Forum Moderator |
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:55 pm Posts: 986
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Thanks for the link. Looks like it is an urban legend of sorts. From that last link: Quote: Finally, I want to address an issue that was raised by some of the readers’ responses. You may have noted that a couple of the readers report loading their car gun with handloaded ammunition. You may also have read elsewhere that using handloads in a defensive situation is a real mistake and that the DA and courts will tear you up.
A couple of years ago I set out to find a court case where handloaded ammunition was actually an issue in the trial. I never found a single one. Later, I asked my readers to tell me about any court cases involving handloaded ammunition. I never heard about a single one. I did, however, hear from a retired federal judge who was trying to find actual documentation of handloaded ammo being an issue in a court case. He hadn’t found a single case, criminal or civil. We simply cannot find any court cases where handloaded ammo was an issue. And, again I’ll make the plea, if you know of any such court cases, please send me the court and docket numbers so that I can research the matter and report on it.
Regardless of what you might have read in other magazines, handloaded ammunition is not an issue in defensive shooting cases. Across the country, in most jurisdictions, your situation is going to be examined to determine if you used deadly force in a reasonable and lawful manner. If the answer to that is affirmative, you don’t have any serious problems.
The real issue regarding your use of handloaded ammo is whether or not you have the skills necessary to fabricate reliable ammunition. If you have any doubts about that, any doubts at all, you would be very wise to load your defensive guns with the best and freshest factory ammunition you can afford.
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dustoff
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Post subject: Handloads Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:47 am |
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:14 am Posts: 68 Location: Plymouth, MN
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Some of this may have started due to "bleed over" from the LEO community. I know many LEO trainers, including John Plaster "Ultimate Sniper" recommends that LEO's not use hand loads. The reasoning is simply because of liability and the scrutiny (and civil lawsuits) that will occur after a shooting.
As for civilians, hand loads should be ok.
Standard Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, although I've been known to play one on the internet.
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Brewman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:08 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:39 pm Posts: 1132 Location: Prior Lake, MN
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My handloads are lead LSWC, and loaded to the light side of the recommendation for the poweder bullet combo I'm loading.
This is what I usually shoot at the range, to save some money.
The Speer lawman ammo I use when I carry the same gun would be considered more "leathal" by most any measure.
I've loaded 10K+ rounds for several calibers, and have had maybe a couple dud primers in the lot.
I don't buy too much store bought ammo except for .22 long rifle, and I've had way more of those fail then my handloads.
I'd like to see an actual case where someone got nailed for using handloads for self defense.
You hear the warnings a lot , but has it ever happend to anyone?
I guess I'd expect the prosecution to use it if they could, but I'd expect my defender to counter, and hopefully common sense to prevail.
_________________ Brewman
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matt160
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:52 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:18 am Posts: 1086 Location: Anoka, MN
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Brewman wrote: I'd like to see an actual case where someone got nailed for using handloads for self defense. None known so far, read links above
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:54 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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Brewman wrote: I guess I'd expect the prosecution to use it if they could, but I'd expect my defender to counter, and hopefully common sense to prevail.
I think I'd rather buy a lottery ticket than count on common sense to prevail in a legal proceeding.
Using factory loads in a carry gun is cheap insurance against the admittedly slim chance that hand loads become an issue that could harm your case.
Of course, should you get into a defensive encounter, there are far more important issues, like it being a legitimate use of force and your actions afterward. But that's another topic.
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johngagemn
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Post subject: IANAL Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:46 pm |
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:28 am Posts: 84 Location: Hoodbury, MN aka: The Wood
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OK, as they say, IANAL!
However, I can do some common sense reasoning here...
If you are forced to use a firearm to defend your life according to the law you are using "deadly force". Now my understanding of "deadly force" is that if you use it, the BG you use it on may die. (Yes I know this concept offends liberals and ACLU lawyers everywhere.)
So, if you are going to do something which results in said BGs ultimate demise, you can't make him more dead. So as far as a prosecution or lawsuit for shooting the BG I would think it should not matter.
However, you are still responsible for where all of your expended rounds go. For example, if you are toting ball ammo handloaded hotter than Nikki Cox in a low cut dress your round stands a better chance of exiting the BG and hitting little Johnny in the eye 50 feet behind him. This of course could be a liability issue.
Of course that could happen with factory loaded ammo too.
So I guess the right answer is... use whatever the heck you want, just use common sense (if you have some left to spare!).
P.S. here is a visual for comparison:
_________________ Charter Member, Red Knights MC - MN 4
"Loyal To Our Duty"
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Jeff Boucher-Zamzo
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:54 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:35 am Posts: 229 Location: Minneapolis
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Wow, I want ammo like that!
_________________ MADFI Certified Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
--------------------------------------------------------
"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes."
-- (Terry Pratchett, Night Watch)
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:43 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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Nice, um.... guns?
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Guest
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:14 am |
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Matt Payne wrote: Nice, um.... guns?
You mean rounds....
One can only guess whether it's a standard factory loading, or if it's been handloaded beyond original specifications.
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Dov
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Post subject: Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:25 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:12 pm Posts: 19
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I don't understand how the County Attorney would know you were using handloads unless you told them.
And from what I know of the people at the BCA and other forensic consultants the state of MN uses I don't think they would be looking for that information anyway.
Only place I think might turn it up would be if/when they did a test to see if a bullet fired from your gun matched bullets fired.
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VikesFan
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:00 am |
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:36 am Posts: 159 Location: Twin Cities
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The only reason I guess I'd use factory loaded ammo vs handloads is that if you buy personal defense ammo, it's supposed to have been assembled with more care and moisture precautions than plinking ammo.
From what I've been told by a Federal employee, the Hydrashock line has all kinds of safeguards like a sealant around the crimp, all rounds weighed, tons of testing, etc etc etc.
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:56 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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