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 I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL. 
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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:00 am 
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princewally wrote:
chunkstyle wrote:
morgasco wrote:
For some reason if I drink normal cola I'll have a Coca-Cola, but with diet cola, diet pepsi tastes....less gritty to me? I'm odd like that.


That IS odd...


I don't think so. I won't drink diet Coke or regular Pepsi, but regular Coke and diet Pepsi are both fine.


See, we're showing that Uncle Harley's notions are from Bizarro-World, not your taste in cola beverages...

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:38 am 
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I am feeling all neglected because this has gone to 7 pages now and Uncle Harley has not responded to any of my posts . . .. so I am posting this kitty .gif in hopes of adding levity & it kinda seems relevant . .. in a funny sort of way.


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Andrew, "department of redundancy department" :lol: I nearly spewwed coffee & choked a lil to avoid the wet keyboard.

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:41 am 
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Welcome to the governments Department of repetitive redundancy division. :D

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:55 am 
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This thread demonstrates the difficulty of debating against a prejudice, in this case, a prejudice against guns generally. No one has been able to make the poster even comment on the seemingly obvious absurdity of banning guns in places the poster thinks are the most dangerous, which would be the exact places where guns would be most useul, if the poster were right.

It's just, "everybody knows", sort of like the civil rights debate in the 50's, when "everybody knew" desegregation would lead to horrible problems, despite there being no evidence for that proposition. :cry:

There were even "scholarly papers" full of five dollar words and hundred dollar paragraphs that were cited in support of the status quo for a segregated country. It's hard, i guess.


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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:59 am 
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"Personal Assessment: Frankly, until such a critical mass of "good guns" on the street is reached, I don't put much credence in the literature favoring either side of the concealed-carry debate insofar as:"

This statement would seem to me to indicate that all restrictions placed on the bearing of guns (requirements for conceal carry, posted no gun zones, no open carry, must be cased and unloaded if in vehicle, etc) must be removed if a critical mass of "good guns" is to be reached. Sounds like the Founding Fathers had it right.


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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Well, there's probably a few orders of magnitude more "good guns" on the street than "bad guns".

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:58 pm 
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MODERATOR MESSAGE:
Reports are noted and closed.

Management isn't going to tell Andrew to step off...as Joel said, Andrew may be direct, but he's within the rules. Calling someone a liar IS a personal attack, and there's a lot of public history and statement to that effect on this forum. Attacking your arguments and calling you wrong is NOT a personal attack. It may make you squirm, but that's not management's problem.

You may not believe it, but you're getting treated awfully kindly for all this.

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:06 pm 
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morgasco wrote:
Blued Steel wrote:
I find your posts insulting to most of todays kids, who are fully able to comprehend the consequences of when to carry, when to party, and when to be a dick head and when not to be.


Thank you for this. I am also a young adult with my carry permit and have NEVER carried while under the influence. This is because of my instilled upon values and ability to determine right for wrong.

Uncle Harley- I'm also surprised that your links relating violence with college students were allowed to slide (unless I missed a post in there).

In your article http://www.bridgelandnews.org/7507 They chalked that shooting up to gang related activity, not a college kid who just got done at a bar on campus, or a college kid period, killing that relationship. Also the Halloween party was not campus related besides the fact of it's proximity to the University of Minnesota, and hosted by a fraternity at a private event center, but by that token you can also link it to anything else that's conveniently close I guess.

Also the soccer shooting you referenced, happened in Lima Peru, with no mention that it was carried out by college students. Just that they were college students who happened to get shot, so that obviously means that the shooters must have been students! I'm sure I could dig up articles from all sorts of countries referencing students of all ages being shot by criminals of all calibers, but the fact that the victims are students means that it is them perpertrating the violence, and should be branded as irresponsilble right?

It's all about right and wrong, and for those who have issues with that anyways, does adding additional text to the law or big fancy signs stop them? Personally, the worry on my mind when sitting in a bar in dinkytown while sipping my diet pepsi with my friends doesn't rest with irresponsible college town permit holders. But hey, that could be my youth, raging hormones, and immaturity interpreting the MN BCA's Permit to Carry reports.


I appreciate the time that you took to vet a couple of these news accounts. I don't know where you got the idea that the population in question had to be enrolled at the college in the town in question. This was never stated as a condition precedent to the central premise. Rather, the issue was the age group in question in a particular and narrowly defined environment; i.e., college party-school towns.

We all know that permit holders, as a class, are less likely than nonpermit holders to be involved in misuse of guns. Theoretically, the same could be said about licensed drivers as opposed to people who get behind the wheel of an automobile with no prior training, testing or licensing certification. Unlicensed drivers can reasonably be expected to be more prone to misuse of an auto than we would expect licensed drivers to be.

One may argue that a gun owner can't get a permit if he has prior convictions for violent crimes, drugs etc., or have histories of involuntary mental health treatment. I think the same could be true of people who have been convicted of misusing automobiles prior to becoming licensed, and it does happen. The juvenile court saw to it in at least one instance that I know of.

The ratianale of my premise is that in an actuarial sense, youthful carry permit holders are no less prone to alcohol-related misuse of guns than licensed drivers of the same age are likely to be prone to alcohol-related driving infractions. Compare now, the anti-premise that youthful permit holders should be allowed to carry guns into bars in college party-school towns, ostensibly to defend themselves against wanton criminals (many of whom, as you shall see below, could qualify for a carry permit would they not have a prior conviction history for violence or drugs, or have a history of involuntary mental health treatment). Such logic reasonably indicates that you're effectively licensing a comparatively and actuarially proven high-risk age group to be paired up with alcohol and dangerous instrumentality in a narrowly defined environment, where law enforcement and public health statistics have, by my rubric, proven in advance of any gun ban, that those places are at high risk, in frequency, intensity and duration for alcohol-related public health and safety problems, because they are mostly patronized by the largest age-group population that most often frequents them in such towns, i.e., actuarially at risk college-aged people.

Regardless, my proposal allows for proven low-risk properties to be exempt from a city or county mandated gun ban. See previous posts. This would cover your favorite burger, brat and pizza joints, and other family-friendly purveyors of alcoholic beverages. It would likely include sedate neighborhood-type bars as well. Moreover, it merely usurps the discretion of high-risk property owners that are too irresponsible to ban youthful gun carriers, a comparatively high-risk group, actuarially.

Unfortunately, with regard to your focus on my news stories, you seem to have fallen into the trap of selecting a few fringe details in order to superficially discredit the body of data as a whole, which is also known as "cherry picking". You're not alone in this, so my observation isn't a personal slight.

Indeed, at first blush, it would appear in a few cases that the assailants had nothing to do with the school. However, I'm afraid you missed the point of those posts entirely. They were not intended to demonstrate that it was college-aged permit holders who were menacing their campus after drinking. They were posted in response to an issue raised as to whether there was a sufficient propensity for violence among college-aged people, generally, so as to warrant concern, generally. The next step is then to determine whether or not such propensity is substantial enough to further warrant interventionary and preventitive measures, generally, irrespective of the concealed-carry ban issue.

Therefore, the inclusion of the halloween shooting in my cited instances is appropriate because, statistically speaking, more likely than not, the gangster shooter in question was of college age, and had some association with others in the largest age-group population that most often frequents the campus for whatever reason; i.e., college-aged people. Regardless of the fact that alcohol was never raised as a precipitating factor, the fact that the party was hosted by a college fraternity proves my point. But for the college, there would be no fraternity, no fraternity hosted party, and therefore no association with the campus whatsoever. This is clearly not the case.

Likewise, If the victim wasn't also a gangster, chances are the shooting wasn't motivated by business-related considerations; e.g., revenge, turf protection, or simple rivalry in general. Therefore, more than likely the shooting originated out of something more personal, and it originated out of both the shooter's and the victim's conduct either before, during or after the party, or out of an association with other people at the party, the conduct of whom triggered an incident. Likewise, more likely than not, the shooting wasn't a random act, unless it was gang initiation activity, e.g., "a buck-fifty", which is statistically less probable in this particular case altogether.

The soccer shooting event is likewise germane in the sense that it ilustrates the central premise.

Where in the world it happens is of little consequence to the focus of the central premise; i.e., the problem of violence associated with college-aged kids. Again, more than likely, the fact that so many relatively young fans of a particular soccer team were shot suggests that in all likelihood the motive originated from rivalry, which is highly probable given the culture of soccer among young people in many foreign countries, both in Europe and in South America. The news article indeed confirms that rivalry was the most likely motive:
Quote:
"Witnesses interviewed by Radioprogramas said the gunman was a fan of Universitario's bitter rival, Alianza Lima."

Anyone who has such an ill-formed identity that they would perpetrate such violence based on loyalty to a "bitter [college team] rival", without any apparent personal grudge against his targets, matches the profile that you see in these college-related cases consistently, e.g., the Virginia Tech shooter. In all statistical likelihood, therefore, the shooter was "college-aged". Whether or not the shooter actually does match the profile in this particular case means little to the body of evidence for these cases as a whole, worldwide.

The following examples are of college-aged students and nonstudents in college-related incidents of violence, who could just as well have become permit holders provided they had no prior conviction history of violence, drug abuse or an involuntary mental health treatment history.

Quote:
Examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks#College_and_university_school_incidents

June 4, 1930 Cambridge, United Kingdom Douglas Newton Potts, 19 3 dead
Student Douglas Potts shot dead Dr. Alexander Wollaston and Detective Sergeant Willis at King's College before committing suicide [200]

June 4, 1936 Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, United States Wesley Crow 2 dead
Wesley Crow shot and killed his Lehigh University English instructor, C. Wesley Phy. Crow went to Phy's office and demanded that Mr. Phy change his grade to a passing mark. Crow committed suicide after shooting Phy. [202]

November 13, 1949 Columbus, Ohio, United States James Heer 1 dead
Ohio State University freshman James Heer of Euclid, Ohio grabbed a .45 caliber handgun from the room of a Delta Tau Delta fraternity brother and shot and killed Jack McKeown, 21, of Norwood, Ohio, an Ohio State senior and fraternity brother. [203]

May 15, 1954 Chapel Hill, North Carolina, United States ... 1 dead, 2 injured
Putnam Davis Jr. was shot and killed during a fraternity house carnival at the Phi Delta Theta house at the University of North Carolina. William Joyner and Allen Long were shot and wounded during the exchange of gunfire in their fraternity bedroom. The incident took place after an all-night beer party. Mr. Long reported to the police that, while the three were drinking beer at 7 a.m., Davis pulled out a gun and started shooting with a gun he had obtained from the car of a former roommate. [207]

January 11, 1955 Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, United States Robert Bechtel, 20 1 dead
After some of his dorm mates urinated on his mattress, Bob Bechtel, a 20-year-old student at Swarthmore College, returned to his dorm with a shotgun and used it to shoot and kill fellow student Holmes Strozier.[208][209][210]

January 17, 1969 Los Angeles, California, United States Claude Hubert, 21 2 dead
Two student members of the Black Panther Party, Alprentice Carter and John Huggins, were fatally shot during a student meeting inside Campbell Hall at the University of California, Los Angeles. The motive of the shooting regarded who would own the school's African American Studies Center. [212] The shooter, Claude Hubert, was never to be found but three other men were arrested in connection with the shooting.[213]

February 19, 1976 Los Angeles, United States Neil Jordan Liebeskind, 18 1 dead, 8 injured
During a test, Neil Liebeskind, a student at a Los Angeles computer school, opened fire at his fellow students with a shotgun, killing one of them and wounding several others. When trying to escape, he was apprehended by Howard Barnes, a security guard working with a television crew filming nearby. When he was told to drop his gun, Liebeskind fired a shot at Barnes, hitting him in the thigh. Barnes returned fire and hit the gunman twice in the chest, leaving him critcally wounded. The shooting was apparently sparked, because of a dispute between Liebeskind and another student.[216][217][218][219]

October 6, 1979 Columbia, South Carolina, United States Mark Houston, 19 2 dead, 5 injured
Mark Houston opens fire inside a dormitory where a party is taking place at the University of South Carolina, He kills two partygoers and injures five.[220]

December 1979 Seattle, Washington, United States Roger Cutsinger, 21 1 dead
Roger Cutsinger, 21, fatally shot his roommate and lover, Larry Duerkson, hoping to collect $500,000 from Duerkson's life insurance policy in which Cutsinger was named beneficiary. Duerkson, a University of Washington library employee, was walking between Parrington Hall and the Henry Art Gallery when Cutsinger shot him. Cutsinger was later convicted of first-degree murder.[221]

April 17, 1981 Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States Leo Kelly, 22 2 dead
Psychology Major Leo Kelly set off several Molotov Cocktails into the hallway of Bursley Residence Hall at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, setting off the fire alarm. He then took a sawed-off shotgun from his room, and began firing shots at fleeing residents. Freshman Edward Siwik and resident advisor Douglas McGreaham would ultimately die from gunshot wounds. Kelly was found guilty on two murder counts, and was sentenced to life in prison.[222]

April 5, 1982 Hot Springs, Arkansas, United States Kelvin Love 2 dead
Kelvin Love, a student at Garland County Community College, killed an instructor and another student.

August 12, 1985 New York City, United States Van Anthony Hull, 29 1 dead, 4 injured
Student Van Hull shot one person dead, injured another four at the New York City Technical College and kept police at bay for about an hour, before being taken into custody. The shooting was apparently related to a dispute over financial aid.[224]

September 8, 1986 New Orleans, Louisiana, United States Cindy Marie Piccot, 21 2 dead
Cindy Marie Piccot entered the Coastal Training Institute and shot 20-year-old student Shamette Allen with a .38 caliber pistol before committing suicide. The motive for the shooting was revenge for an earlier attack in which Shamette Allen set Cindy Marie Piccot on fire.[225]

December 6, 1989 Montreal, Quebec, Canada Marc Lépine, 25 15 dead, 14 injured
École Polytechnique massacre. Marc Lépine took a hunting rifle into École Polytechnique de Montréal, killed 14 women, wounded four men and ten women before committing suicide. It remains to this day the worst mass killing in Canadian history.

November 1, 1991 Iowa City, Iowa, United States Gang Lu, 28 6 dead, 1 injured
After his dissertation did not win a certain academic award, Ph.D. physics student Gang Lu shot six people before committing suicide. Five were killed, including three professors. A student employee was paralyzed.

December 14, 1992 Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States Wayne Lo, 18 2 dead, 4 injured
Armed with an SKS carbine, 18-year-old Simon's Rock College of Bard student Wayne Lo killed a professor and a student and wounded several others. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment without parole.

April 4, 1994 Aarhus, Denmark Flemming Nielsen, 35 3 dead, 2 injured
A 35-year old student at Aarhus University entered the cafeteria of his University armed with a shotgun. He shot and killed two female students and wounded two others. Soon afterwards he went to the men's room where he committed suicide.

August 15, 1996 San Diego, California, United States Frederick M. Davidson, 36 3 dead
San Diego State University shooting. Frederick M. Davidson, shot Dr. Chen Liang, Dr. Constantinos Lyrintzis, and Dr. D. Preston Lowrey during a meeting at which he was to defend his master's thesis. He pleaded guilty to three counts of murder and is serving a life term in state prison [226].

September 17, 1996 University Park, Pennsylvania, United States Jillian Robbins, 19 1 dead, 1 injured
Hetzel Union Building shooting. 19 year old Jillian Robbins opened fire on students walking to classes at The Pennsylvania State University, killing one student and wounding another.

October 16, 1996 West Lafayette, Indiana, United States Jarrod Allen Eskew, 19 2 dead
On October 15, 1996 Jay Severson, 27 a Wiley Hall counselor at Purdue University caught Jarrod Allen Eskew, 19 of Crawfordsville, Indiana cutting cocaine in his dorm room. Severson called the Purdue Police Department but when they arrived Eskew had fled. Eskew returned the next day at 2:50 pm with a sawed off 12-gauge shotgun while under the influence of both marijuana and cocaine. Eskew went to Severson's Wiley Hall dorm room and fatally shot Severson in the head. He then barricaded himself in his third floor dorm room. A janitor found the body a short time later. SWAT and police took up positions around Wiley Hall. Police evacuated Wiley Hall, attempted to negotiate, fired tear gas, and stormed the room to find Eskew had taken his own life with the shotgun. [227][228]

March 8, 1997 Kamyshin. Russian Federation Sergei Lepnev 6 dead, 2 injured
First year cadet Sergei Lepnev of the Russian Military School opened fire on his classmates, killing six and wounding two.[229]

Feb. 13-15, 2004 Kunming, China Ma Jiajue, 23 4 dead
Biochemistry student Ma Jiajue stabbed four other students to death in a dormitory at Yunnan University. He was found guilty of the crime and executed on June 17, 2004.[233]

September 13, 2006 Montreal, Quebec, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25 2 dead, 19 injured
Dawson College shooting. Kimveer Gill had opened fire at Dawson College, a CEGEP in Westmount near downtown Montreal. Gill began shooting outside the de Maisonneuve Boulevard entrance to the school, and moved towards the atrium by the cafeteria on the main floor. One victim died later in the next day due to her serious injuries at the hospital, while another 19 were injured, eight of whom were listed in critical condition with six requiring surgery. The gunman later committed suicide by shooting himself in the head, after being shot in the arm by police.

May 8, 2007 Bundoora, Victoria Australia Sarah Jean Cheney, 23 1 injured
Sarah Jean Cheney stabbed Jemma Clancy, a 27-year-old behavioral science student, three times with a steak knife. The incident occurred in the Borchardt library at the Bundoora campus of La Trobe University. Sarah Jean Cheney did not know Jemma Clancy personally and expressed that she just desired to kill someone. Jemma Clancy was taken to hospital in a serious but stable condition.[6]

September 21, 2007 Dover, Delaware, United States Loyer D. Braden, 18 1 dead, 1 injured
An 18-year old Delaware State University student shot two 17-year old female students; one shooting victim, 17-year old Shalita Middleton, died from injuries sustained in the shootings 32 days later while in the hospital.

February 8, 2008 Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States Latina Williams, 23 3 dead
Latina Williams, a 23-year-old nursing student, opened fire of six rounds with a .357-caliber revolver in a second-floor classroom at Louisiana Technical College, in Baton Rouge, before committing suicide. The two victims were classmates Karsheika Graves and Taneshia Butler, who were both fatally shot.[245]

February 14, 2008 DeKalb, Illinois, United States Steven Phillip Kazmierczak, 27 6 dead, 18 injured
Northern Illinois University shooting. 27-year-old former student Steven Kazmierczak opened fire with a shotgun and three semi-automatic handguns at Cole Hall on the campus of Northern Illinois University, in DeKalb, killing five students and wounding 17 other students and the class instructor. Kazmierczak then fatally shot himself.[246][247][248]

September 23, 2008 Kauhajoki, Finland Matti Juhani Saari, 22 11 dead, 1 injured
Kauhajoki school shooting. 22-year-old culinary arts student Matti Saari opened fire at the Kauhajoki School of Hospitality of Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences, in Kauhajoki, Finland, using a semi-automatic .22-caliber Walther P22 pistol. Nine students and a teacher died in the shooting, and their bodies along with school property inside the building were set ablaze. Saari then shot himself in the head, later dying at Tampere University Hospital.[251][252] It was the second school shooting to have occurred in Finland in less than a year, with the first one being the Jokela High School shooting in November 2007.[253]

January 21, 2009 Blacksburg, Virginia, United States Haiyang Zhu, 25 1 dead
Yang Xin, a 22-year-old graduate student from Beijing, China, was decapitated with a kitchen knife by fellow student Zhu Haiyang, in a cafe on the campus of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (Virginia Tech). It is the second murder to have occurred on campus since April 2007, in which a 23-year-old student killed 32 people before committing suicide.[255]

February 7, 2009 Houston, Texas, United States Jeremy Lee Pierce, 32 1 dead
Jeremy Lee Pierce, a 32-year-old student at University of Houston, fatally shot Joe Tall, a 47-year-old homeless man, on the campus bus stop. Pierce has been charged with murder.[256]

April 9, 2009 Agios Ioannis Rentis, Athens, Greece Dimitris Patmanidis, 19 1 dead, 3 injured
OAED Vocational College shooting. Dimitris Patmanidis, a 19-year-old car electronics student at the Manpower Employment Organisation of Greece (OAED), a vocational college in the Agios Ioannis Rentis suburb of Athens, Greece, walked onto campus armed with two pistols and a knife. Patmanidis shot an 18-year-old student on a staircase three times; he was carried to Nikaia General Hospital with serious injuries. Patmanidis then confronted two pedestrians alerted by the gunfire, and shot both of them, and then fled to a park where he committed suicide.[258] The incident of a school shooting is one of the first to ever occur in Greece.[259][260]


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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:15 pm 
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mrokern wrote:
MODERATOR MESSAGE:
Reports are noted and closed.

Management isn't going to tell Andrew to step off...as Joel said, Andrew may be direct, but he's within the rules. Calling someone a liar IS a personal attack, and there's a lot of public history and statement to that effect on this forum. Attacking your arguments and calling you wrong is NOT a personal attack. It may make you squirm, but that's not management's problem.

You may not believe it, but you're getting treated awfully kindly for all this.

- Mark O., Forum Moderator

I never called anyone a liar. Show me my exact words.

Whoever is spreading this libel is either ill-informed, or they are indulging a knee-jerk reaction from an unwarranted extrapolation of a characterization I made after repeated attempts to get an individual to not be so hasty in rushing to judgment about my posts as a result of not reading them carefully.


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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:46 pm 
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hey uncle harley,

do you know what all those people on your list have in common?




Every single damn one of them broke the law. They ignored an already existing law that was in place preventing them from committing those acts.



Those same laws you somehow will make those same people leave their guns at home.

If you can not see this, your eyes are closed.





















Know what every single damn one of them had in common too?






They were all taking some sort of SSRI drugs, (google the list Prozac killers)


so you have killings taking place on "gun free" zones, with people who are being medicated with meds which have a clear history of causing a very small percentage of that population to "go Postal".



Please oh please explain how more laws are going to stop that?


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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Uncle Harley wrote:
I never called anyone a liar. Show me my exact words.

Whoever is spreading this libel is either ill-informed, or they are indulging a knee-jerk reaction from an unwarranted extrapolation of a characterization I made after repeated attempts to get an individual to not be so hasty in rushing to judgment about my posts as a result of not reading them carefully.


No problem:
Former forum member Uncle Harley wrote:
If you look back at Mr. Rothman's past posts, I doubt that you will find them to be anything but disingenuous...


And, with that, you're banned. I suggest www.mnguntalk.com. They might be a little more ready to engage you on your ideas.

So long, troll.

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Doh! It was just getting amusing.

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:34 pm 
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I would still like to know if there is a Heather Marten angle to all this. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:54 pm 
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My guess was wrong. I had it at 18-20. It was...26.

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 Post subject: Re: I know, just what you wanted... another CC'ing LIBERAL.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:08 pm 
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phorvick wrote:
My guess was wrong. I had it at 18-20. It was...26.


Actually I think you would have been right but Andrew was enjoying himself too much. :lol:

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