Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive
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Carrying Rifles or Shotguns?
http://forum.twincitiescarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11295		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mosin [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Carrying Rifles or Shotguns?
I'm confused about the legality of carrying a rifle or shotgun with a P2C. It seems half the info I find states you can and half states you can't.

I asked my instructor in class and his response was that you can only carry firearms with barrels shorter than 16 inches. Friends of mine who have taken courses from different instructors have been told they can carry any firearm that is legal to own.

This page on TCC states that the law is you can carry pistols, revolvers, shotguns or rifles.

http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... php?t=4060

And of course there is also the fact that the top of the P2C states permit to carry a "pistol"

Any insight is appreciated. TIA
Author:  JoeH [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew's Fact Sheet is correct. You may carry long guns or handguns. Forget that the permit reads "Pistol".

I hope that there was some confusion between you and your instructor on your question. The 16" answer is total BS.
Author:  phorvick [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
And, don't confuse "carry" of a loaded long gun with the still (very) illegal "transporting" of a loaded long gun.

16" or less. Ha!
Author:  westhope [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
To keep things simple:

A Permit to Carry allows you to carry a loaded and uncased handgun on your person or transport it in a motor vehicle.

A Permit to Carry exempts you from the need to case a long gun to carry it. Although legal, I do not know of anyone that recommends doing it. You will be stopped, detained and told not to do it. Your choice.

A Permit to Carry does not allow you to transport a long gun in a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded and cased or unloaded and stored in the trunk.

This should have been made very clear in your class.

I have no idea where the "16 inch barrel" statement comes from.
Author:  jaysong [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
The posts above are correct. Here is a reference for you. :D

Quote:
624.7181 Rifles and shotguns in public places
“Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor”
“‘Carry’ does not include…the carrying of a BB gun, rifle or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714”
Author:  Mosin [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks everyone, it's making sense now. So basically I still have to unload my shotgun when traveling by vehicle from field to field while hunting.

So anything not meeting this below definition of a pistol needs to be cased an unloaded in a motor vehicle.

From 624.712 DEFINITIONS.
Subdivision 1.Scope.

As used in sections 624.711 to 624.717, the terms defined in this section shall have the meanings given them.
Subd. 2.Pistol.

"Pistol" includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle (1) from which may be fired or ejected one or more solid projectiles by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances; or (2) for which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, air or other gas, or vapor.

"Pistol" does not include a device firing or ejecting a shot measuring .18 of an inch, or less, in diameter and commonly known as a "BB gun," a scuba gun, a stud gun or nail gun used in the construction industry or children's pop guns or toys.

This must be what the instructor was referring to.
Author:  DeanC [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mosin wrote:
Thanks everyone, it's making sense now. So basically I still have to unload my shotgun when traveling by vehicle from field to field while hunting.

Unload and case it, or put it in the trunk.
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whether transporting a long gun is "carrying" it (per 624.7181) is untested law, so it might be legal. I just don't want to be the one to test it.
Author:  Porkie [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:44 am ]
Post subject: 
If I may stipulate that a rifle or a shotgun with a barrel less than 16 inches is an NFA weapon, this thread remains garbled. Andrew’s sheet says that permit holders can carry a loaded rifle or shot gun. Open or concealed. I was trained that this is correct. There also is commentary that ‘transporting’ is somehow magically different from carrying.

While I doubt that HAVING a loaded rifle or shotgun in a car is going to happen, I would like a reference that says it’s illegal for a permit holder to do it. I actually don’t care about whether things have been tested or not. In America most people take the view things are OK unless prohibited. So what say you?

Regards, Porkie
Author:  JimC [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:57 am ]
Post subject: 
My instructor said with a carry permit you could walk around carrying any legal gun or rifle, shotgun etc. Whatever you could strap on your body was legal. You could play Rambo if you wanted to.

Sounded strange to me.

Sounds like instructors need to get together and find out what's what.

Everyone should be told the same thing.
Author:  phorvick [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:10 am ]
Post subject: 
JimC wrote:
...Sounds like instructors need to get together and find out what's what. ....
And, that has been done over and over and over. Some folks just do not want to believe that "carry" applies to long guns. Again, whether wise or not is a totally different issue. The logic behind it is most certainly a hunting courtesy. Your party is out in the boonies of Minnesota...rifles/shotguns in hand hunting. Your car is 5 miles north of you and you stumble into beautiful downtown Flom, MN, and need to purchase something at the CENEX station. It is not illegal to have the rifle/shotgun carried in that public place. Here is more information that has been posted numerous times...from the source:
---
[Original Message]
From: Pat Watts <pat.watts@dnr.state.mn.us
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 9/22/2005 2:59:45 PM
Subject: Re: FW: carry permits and long guns

Our DNR Information Center staff forwarded your inquiry to me for
response.

Since receiving your inquiry, I personally contacted the BCA agent that
responded to your earlier email. We agree that long guns cannot be carried
uncased/loaded in motor vehicles. BCA may continue to refer those types of
questions to DNR if needed.

Regarding the question, "does the conceal/carrry law apply to long guns?",
it depends..... Yes, it does as far as public places and about the person
(MS 624.7181). No, it does not as far as a motor vehicle (MS 97B.045).
Long guns cannot be carried uncased/loaded in/on motor vehicles under a
permit to carry.

How you get there.....

(1) The primary conceal/carry permit language is located in MS 624.714.
That section consistently uses the term "pistol" only and does not include
long guns (shotguns/rifles). With a permit to carry, persons can carry
"pistols" in motor vehicles (specifically including snowmobiles and boats),
about their person, or in a public place. The definition of "pistol" for
this section of law is located in MS 624.712, subd 2, and is generally a
handgun, and NOT a long gun.

(2) MS 624.7181 covers rifles and shotguns 'in public places', and
includes a specific exemption for permits to carry issued under MS 624.714.
However, this section of law does not extend to motor vehicles, and is
generally limited to 'public places'. In addition, MS 624.7181, subd 1,
paragraph (c) does and has provided an exception for possessing
shotguns/rifles out of doors for hunting and target shooting purposes (see
the concern in item no. 1 towards the end of this series of emails).

(3) There is a provision located in MS 97B.045 that does exempt a
"handgun" carried under a permit to carry issued under MS 624.714. This
exemption from the firearms transportation laws is limited to "handguns"
and does not extend to long guns. This exception has been in place for
many, many years, and all peace officers are authorized to enforce this
provision of law (MS 97A.201, subd 2).

Please let me know if you have any further questions in this regard.
Thank you.

Pat Watts, Policy/Legal Analyst
DNR Enforcement Division
St Paul MN
---
Now, of course Pat Watts is not the law, not the judge etc. But, it seems pretty clear what their position is. Proceed then with caution, but know what their position is.
Author:  plblark [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Here's how it works and what I teach in class (in brief)
Carry of a handgun is covered under the carry statute.
Carry of a long gun references a permit holder as exempt from the repercussions of loaded long gun carry in public.
The Long Gun change was a specific change to a particular statute.
Transport laws for long guns are separate and both the DNR and the State AG have said they will enforce them for long guns.

Here's a link to the Rifles and Long Guns Statute:
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/dat ... /7181.html

Thus, Pistol == carry anywhere legal and a specific transport exemption
Long Guns == carry is legal (use discretion or you'll draw attention) but no transport exemption so the transport laws will be enforced. This in effect means when in or on a motor vehicle unloaded and completely cased or unloaded and in the trunk.

edit: I see Phorvick came in and handled it better than I did.
Author:  Porkie [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:36 am ]
Post subject: 
So the commentary is that some policemen have interpreted the law for us (again) so that they can catch us at something easier to prove than breaking the law. Since I don’t plan to go road hunting, or jacklighting deer, especially down on Lake Street, I guess I don’t give a dern what the game guards have to say about this. Seems like the commentary about carrying in the state parks started off the same way until they were taken in hand.

I usually have the view that I’m the best judge of under what circumstances I might need my Kalashnikov. And whether my racket bag has more in it than my racket. I use a .270 if I’m out to get a deer.

I guess my take on this is that Andrew’s stuff is a reasonable and clear statement of what the law says and I’ll just go on about my business and follow the training I have received as not being flawed.

Many thanks to the group for the clear and prompt feedback though.

Regards, Porkie,
Author:  joelr [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:48 am ]
Post subject: 
plblark wrote:
Here's how it works and what I teach in class (in brief)
Carry of a handgun is covered under the carry statute.
Carry of a long gun references a permit holder as exempt from the repercussions of loaded long gun carry in public.
The Long Gun change was a specific change to a particular statute.
Transport laws for long guns are separate and both the DNR and the State AG have said they will enforce them for long guns.

Here's a link to the Rifles and Long Guns Statute:
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/dat ... /7181.html

Pretty close. But do remember that 624.7181 was not changed in either 2003 or 2005; it was that way before carry reform.

The mechanism of 624.7181 is strange; it forbids carrying, but defines what permit holders (among other folks) do with long guns in public as not "carrying." You might be toting, hauling, bringing along, happening to have, or possessing a long gun in public, but if you're a permit holder, you're not "carrying" it, legally speaking.
Author:  plblark [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Andrew was kind enough to both point out the progeny of the laws and how I could look that up in the future. Thanks Andrew.

I edited my post to reflect that.

Yep, weird that as long as I have a Permit to Carry a Pistol I'm not really Carrying that loaded Long Gun in my hand when I'm in a public place :-)
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